I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.

At about 1000 AGL, I began the left turn to 3000.

About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm IFR,"
I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor, squawk
1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR. I didn't
get you a release."

I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
They soon got it and handed me off to departure.

Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.

Jon

What just happened to you is that you helped the local controller cover
up an operational error. Not your fault. The controller at that
facility is required to get a release. The error happened when you took
off, having you squawk VFR is covering it up and gets people suspended
or fired.




Jon Woellhaf wrote:

> I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
> clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
> taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
> departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.
>
> At about 1000 AGL, I began the left turn to 3000.
>
> About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
> asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
> confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
> departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm IFR,"
> I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor, squawk
> 1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR. I didn't
> get you a release."
>
> I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
> They soon got it and handed me off to departure.
>
> Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
> didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.
>
> Jon
>
>

Jon,

The turn should have started at 400 agl, right?

On Nov 27, 1:14 pm, "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
> I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
> clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
> taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
> departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.
>
> At about 1000 AGL, I began the left turn to 3000.
>
> About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
> asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
> confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
> departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm IFR,"
> I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor, squawk
> 1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR. I didn't
> get you a release."
>
> I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
> They soon got it and handed me off to departure.
>
> Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
> didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.
>
> Jon

It happened to me more than once when I'd be told by clearance
to expect squawk on release, and then I'd tell the tower that
I'm ready for take-off, and they would clear me, and I'd say
that I'm expecting a squawk from them, and they'd go like:
"er... cancel take-off clearance, hold for release". I made it
my SOP to always tell'em this explicitly: if I'm VFR I'd say:
"such-and-such ready for take-off, departing north-west (or whatever),
and if I'm IFR I'd say: "such-and-such ready for take-off, IFR to XXX".

Andrey


Jon Woellhaf > wrote:
> I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
> clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
> taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
> departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.
>
> At about 1000 AGL, I began the left turn to 3000.
>
> About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
> asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
> confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
> departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm IFR,"
> I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor, squawk
> 1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR. I didn't
> get you a release."
>
> I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
> They soon got it and handed me off to departure.
>
> Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
> didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.
>
> Jon
>
>

On 11/27/07 12:26, Andrey Serbinenko wrote:
> It happened to me more than once when I'd be told by clearance
> to expect squawk on release, and then I'd tell the tower that
> I'm ready for take-off, and they would clear me, and I'd say
> that I'm expecting a squawk from them, and they'd go like:
> "er... cancel take-off clearance, hold for release". I made it
> my SOP to always tell'em this explicitly: if I'm VFR I'd say:
> "such-and-such ready for take-off, departing north-west (or whatever),
> and if I'm IFR I'd say: "such-and-such ready for take-off, IFR to XXX".

This is what I've been told to do (except that I specifically state VFR to ...
when VFR). There's still no excuse for the controller's mistake, but at least
you're helping to catch it, rather than just let it unfold.

>
> Andrey
>

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

"Andrey Serbinenko" > wrote in message
...
> if I'm VFR I'd say:
> "such-and-such ready for take-off, departing north-west (or whatever),
> and if I'm IFR I'd say: "such-and-such ready for take-off, IFR to XXX".
>

That's what I use; no confusion about it.
--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
...
>
> I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
> clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
> taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
> departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.
>
> At about 1000 AGL, I began the left turn to 3000.
>
> About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
> asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
> confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
> departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm
> IFR," I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor,
> squawk 1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR.
> I didn't get you a release."
>
> I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
> They soon got it and handed me off to departure.
>
> Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
> didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.
>

It isn't necessary, the local controller in this case screwed up big time.
I wouldn't have been as accommodating as you were.

"Patrick" > wrote in message
...
> Jon,
>
> The turn should have started at 400 agl, right?

I normally turn at 400 to 500 AGL, but in this case a turn at that altitude
would have put me into the path of a 172 that had departed from the parallel
runway. Tower had called the traffic, although he said the traffic was going
to make a right crosswind turn, when he meant left.

And BTW, I was told to turn left heading 300, not 3000. (That's the hard way
to get to 120. <g>)

On Nov 27, 10:14 am, "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:

> I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
> They soon got it and handed me off to departure.
>
> Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
> didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.

This has happened to me several times. Now I *NEVER* tell the tower
I'm ready for take off if I'm IFR, I say "Ready for Release". Since
then I've never had a problem.

BTW: Once this could have been really dangerous. I was flying out of
Santa Barbara where they often use a different runway for IFR and VFR.
I told the tower I was ready to take off on runway XXX. Tower
responded with "Cleared for take off". I said "that airliner on final
looks really close". Tower said "Oh, I thought you were VFR I didn't
realize you were at runway XXX". So bottom line, never say "take off"
when you're IFR.

-Robert

On Nov 27, 1:09 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:

> It isn't necessary, the local controller in this case screwed up big time.
> I wouldn't have been as accommodating as you were.- Hide quoted text -

Shouldn't be necessary but sadly is.

-Robert

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
> What just happened to you is that you helped the local controller cover up
> an operational error. Not your fault. The controller at that facility is
> required to get a release. The error happened when you took off, having
> you squawk VFR is covering it up and gets people suspended or fired.

Looks like the cover up didn't work too well, because when I told Departure,
"I thought I was IFR," he replied, "Well, that's what we thought too, but
evidently Tower messed up."

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
> This has happened to me several times. Now I *NEVER* tell the tower
> I'm ready for take off if I'm IFR, I say "Ready for Release". Since
> then I've never had a problem.
>
> BTW: Once this could have been really dangerous. I was flying out of
> Santa Barbara where they often use a different runway for IFR and VFR.
> I told the tower I was ready to take off on runway XXX. Tower
> responded with "Cleared for take off". I said "that airliner on final
> looks really close". Tower said "Oh, I thought you were VFR I didn't
> realize you were at runway XXX". So bottom line, never say "take off"
> when you're IFR.

Yikes! I'm in the habit of telling tower when I'm VFR and usually do say
when I'm IFR. This was just the wrong time omit it. I like your suggestion
and will now say, "IFR to [destination], ready for release." I also say what
runway I'm at.

....and don't hold short, hold shorter than short :), i.e. where other planes
can get around you if you need to wait a few minutes for release. At the
wrong time here at RHV, you might have to wait 15-20 minutes (or more).

Hilton

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ...
>> This has happened to me several times. Now I *NEVER* tell the tower
>> I'm ready for take off if I'm IFR, I say "Ready for Release". Since
>> then I've never had a problem.
>>
>> BTW: Once this could have been really dangerous. I was flying out of
>> Santa Barbara where they often use a different runway for IFR and VFR.
>> I told the tower I was ready to take off on runway XXX. Tower
>> responded with "Cleared for take off". I said "that airliner on final
>> looks really close". Tower said "Oh, I thought you were VFR I didn't
>> realize you were at runway XXX". So bottom line, never say "take off"
>> when you're IFR.
>
> Yikes! I'm in the habit of telling tower when I'm VFR and usually do say
> when I'm IFR. This was just the wrong time omit it. I like your suggestion
> and will now say, "IFR to [destination], ready for release." I also say
> what runway I'm at.
>

On 2007-11-27, Robert M. Gary > wrote:
> I'm ready for take off if I'm IFR, I say "Ready for Release". Since
> then I've never had a problem.
>
> BTW: Once this could have been really dangerous. I was flying out of
> Santa Barbara where they often use a different runway for IFR and VFR.
> I told the tower I was ready to take off on runway XXX. Tower
> responded with "Cleared for take off". I said "that airliner on final
> looks really close". Tower said "Oh, I thought you were VFR I didn't
> realize you were at runway XXX". So bottom line, never say "take off"
> when you're IFR.

For similar reasons I announce something like "Cessna XXX ready at
runway XXL(R) IFR(VFR whichever way)"

At my home airport the parallel runways are quite close together and we have
something like five flight schools so its sometimes kinda hard to tell which
runway the final traffic is lined up on. I swear I saw one pair apparently
swap runways on short final :)

Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
suspicious.





On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:14:36 -0700, "Jon Woellhaf"
> wrote:

>I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
>clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
>taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
>departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.
>
>At about 1000 AGL, I began the left turn to 3000.
>
>About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
>asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
>confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
>departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm IFR,"
>I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor, squawk
>1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR. I didn't
>get you a release."
>
>I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
>They soon got it and handed me off to departure.
>
>Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
>didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.
>
>Jon
>

On Nov 27, 2:09 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
> > clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
> > taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
> > departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.
>
> > At about 1000 AGL, I began the left turn to 3000.
>
> > About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
> > asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
> > confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
> > departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm
> > IFR," I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor,
> > squawk 1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR.
> > I didn't get you a release."
>
> > I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
> > They soon got it and handed me off to departure.
>
> > Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
> > didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.
>
> It isn't necessary, the local controller in this case screwed up big time.
> I wouldn't have been as accommodating as you were.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's one way to look at it. However fortunately in this case the
weather was clear and there were probably minimal safety issues. If
pilots give ATC some slack when needed, hopefully they'll be nice when
the pilots mess up. He did eventually get the clearance straightened
out. Nobody's perfect, and as long as we all realize and learn from
mistakes, I don't see why there's a need to be anal about it.

It's a two-way street.

--Dan

Jon Woellhaf wrote:
> Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
> didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.


Sounds like somebody dropped the soap. I usually make my first contact to
clearance delivery by stating words to the effect: "Cessna 1234Alpha IFR to
Miami with golf, requesting clearance." After that, it's all on them.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Dan wrote:
> That's one way to look at it. However fortunately in this case the
> weather was clear and there were probably minimal safety issues. If
> pilots give ATC some slack when needed, hopefully they'll be nice when
> the pilots mess up. He did eventually get the clearance straightened
> out. Nobody's perfect, and as long as we all realize and learn from
> mistakes, I don't see why there's a need to be anal about it.


The clear weather may have contributed to the confusion in this case. If it
were a certifiably crappy day, everyone should have understood that all flight
ops were under IFR.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Dan wrote:
>
> The clear weather may have contributed to the confusion in this case. If
> it were a certifiably crappy day, everyone should have understood that all
> flight ops were under IFR.
>
No one should not make assumptions under either scenario.

Matt W. Barrow wrote:
> "Andrey Serbinenko" > wrote in message
> ...
>> if I'm VFR I'd say:
>> "such-and-such ready for take-off, departing north-west (or whatever),
>> and if I'm IFR I'd say: "such-and-such ready for take-off, IFR to XXX".
>>
>
> That's what I use; no confusion about it.

Same here.

On the VFR side, it also helps the controller to know which way you're
planning to go without waiting to be asked.

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
>
> That's one way to look at it. However fortunately in this case the
> weather was clear and there were probably minimal safety issues. If
> pilots give ATC some slack when needed, hopefully they'll be nice when
> the pilots mess up. He did eventually get the clearance straightened
> out. Nobody's perfect, and as long as we all realize and learn from
> mistakes, I don't see why there's a need to be anal about it.
>
> It's a two-way street.
>

Why does ATC need some slack in this case? Ground control knew he was IFR,
that controller issued an IFR clearance and taxi instructions to the OP.
Presumably the ground controller passes a flight strip to the local
controller on all departures that shows the aircraft to be IFR or VFR. This
is about as basic as it gets in ATC, there's no excuse for this error and
certainly no excuse for compounding it by asking the OP to squawk VFR after
departure.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
>
> This has happened to me several times. Now I *NEVER* tell the tower
> I'm ready for take off if I'm IFR, I say "Ready for Release". Since
> then I've never had a problem.
>

And if the tower respnds by telling you you're released? What do you do?

Any needed release should have been obtained during the taxi so that when
you are ready for takeoff you can be so cleared.


>
> BTW: Once this could have been really dangerous. I was flying out of
> Santa Barbara where they often use a different runway for IFR and VFR.
> I told the tower I was ready to take off on runway XXX. Tower
> responded with "Cleared for take off". I said "that airliner on final
> looks really close". Tower said "Oh, I thought you were VFR I didn't
> realize you were at runway XXX". So bottom line, never say "take off"
> when you're IFR.
>

I believe the AIM uses "ready for departure".

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> Why does ATC need some slack in this case? Ground control knew he was IFR,
> that controller issued an IFR clearance and taxi instructions to the OP.
> Presumably the ground controller passes a flight strip to the local
> controller on all departures that shows the aircraft to be IFR or VFR. This
> is about as basic as it gets in ATC, there's no excuse for this error and
> certainly no excuse for compounding it by asking the OP to squawk VFR after
> departure.
>
>
I agree no excuse, but do the so-called VFR towers have strips?
The ones I used to visit didn't use to have printers and didn't
seem to use them for VFR ground movements. The Oshkosh tower
sup was even lamenting to me that they FAA took away the printer
after the airshow each year.

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
...
>
> Looks like the cover up didn't work too well, because when I told
> Departure, "I thought I was IFR," he replied, "Well, that's what we
> thought too, but evidently Tower messed up."
>

What was the departure airport?

Hilton wrote:
> ...and don't hold short, hold shorter than short :), i.e. where other planes
> can get around you if you need to wait a few minutes for release. At the
> wrong time here at RHV, you might have to wait 15-20 minutes (or more).
>
At some fields what that will get you is the inability to take off when
you are released.

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> I agree no excuse, but do the so-called VFR towers have strips?
> The ones I used to visit didn't use to have printers and didn't
> seem to use them for VFR ground movements. The Oshkosh tower
> sup was even lamenting to me that they FAA took away the printer
> after the airshow each year.
>

Use of strips for VFR departures could be matter of local procedure, but if
they're not used then some other means of passing the information to the
local controller must be used.

Jon Woellhaf wrote:

> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>This has happened to me several times. Now I *NEVER* tell the tower
>>I'm ready for take off if I'm IFR, I say "Ready for Release". Since
>>then I've never had a problem.
>>
>>BTW: Once this could have been really dangerous. I was flying out of
>>Santa Barbara where they often use a different runway for IFR and VFR.
>>I told the tower I was ready to take off on runway XXX. Tower
>>responded with "Cleared for take off". I said "that airliner on final
>>looks really close". Tower said "Oh, I thought you were VFR I didn't
>>realize you were at runway XXX". So bottom line, never say "take off"
>>when you're IFR.
>
>
> Yikes! I'm in the habit of telling tower when I'm VFR and usually do say
> when I'm IFR. This was just the wrong time omit it. I like your suggestion
> and will now say, "IFR to [destination], ready for release." I also say what
> runway I'm at.



It is precisely for this reason that when I worked at GFK, home of UND
and the 75 airplane departure rush every couple of hours, that we would
not read you your IFR clearance until you were ready to go. Very
occasionally someone would really want their clearance right away but
then we made you sit on the ramp and tell us when you were done with
your runup, etc.

wrote:

> Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
> instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
> suspicious.

When I was at GFK the ground controller gave you runway heading as part
of the clearance. The local controller didn't have to do anything but
say cleared for takeoff if the approach control left him runway heading
when we got the release.

Ron Natalie wrote:

> I agree no excuse, but do the so-called VFR towers have strips?

We only used strips for IFR aircraft. The GC reads the clearance to the
aircraft and gives the strip to the flight data man. Data mans job is
to get the release and give the strip to the local controller at the
proper time. Until that happens the local controller has no idea the
aircraft is IFR. At our facility we made both local controllers go read
the departure list off the ground controllers pad. That was the only
effective way to to get the information. All three positions were too
busy to make the GC somehow get that info to the local controllers. The
local controllers would get them as time was available and as he saw
them starting to stack up for departure.


> The ones I used to visit didn't use to have printers and didn't
> seem to use them for VFR ground movements.


We didn't have a printer when I was there and there was no point in
writing strips for VFR's as we wouldn't have counted them anyways, they
were trash as soon as you were done with them.



The Oshkosh tower
> sup was even lamenting to me that they FAA took away the printer
> after the airshow each year.


OSH doesn't have any traffic other than for the airshow.

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> It is precisely for this reason that when I worked at GFK, home of UND and
> the 75 airplane departure rush every couple of hours, that we would not
> read you your IFR clearance until you were ready to go.
>

Great idea. Put the lengthier transmissions on the local control frequency
when 75 airplanes are looking to depart. I'm sure they don't mind waiting
for that IFR departure while he reviews his clearance at the hold short
line.

On 11/28/07 08:04, Newps wrote:
>
> Jon Woellhaf wrote:
>
>> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>This has happened to me several times. Now I *NEVER* tell the tower
>>>I'm ready for take off if I'm IFR, I say "Ready for Release". Since
>>>then I've never had a problem.
>>>
>>>BTW: Once this could have been really dangerous. I was flying out of
>>>Santa Barbara where they often use a different runway for IFR and VFR.
>>>I told the tower I was ready to take off on runway XXX. Tower
>>>responded with "Cleared for take off". I said "that airliner on final
>>>looks really close". Tower said "Oh, I thought you were VFR I didn't
>>>realize you were at runway XXX". So bottom line, never say "take off"
>>>when you're IFR.
>>
>>
>> Yikes! I'm in the habit of telling tower when I'm VFR and usually do say
>> when I'm IFR. This was just the wrong time omit it. I like your suggestion
>> and will now say, "IFR to [destination], ready for release." I also say what
>> runway I'm at.
>
>
>
> It is precisely for this reason that when I worked at GFK, home of UND
> and the 75 airplane departure rush every couple of hours, that we would
> not read you your IFR clearance until you were ready to go.

So you expect an aircraft to take off right after you read them their
clearance?

The pilot is going to need some time to digest the clearance. I certainly
wouldn't just take the clearance without regard and depart.

Normally, I would request my clearance after I've completed my run-up,
but I would still need a couple minutes to check the charts and make
sure the clearance is acceptable (unless it was 'as filed', of course).


> Very
> occasionally someone would really want their clearance right away but
> then we made you sit on the ramp and tell us when you were done with
> your runup, etc.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:


>>
>>It is precisely for this reason that when I worked at GFK, home of UND
>>and the 75 airplane departure rush every couple of hours, that we would
>>not read you your IFR clearance until you were ready to go.
>
>
> So you expect an aircraft to take off right after you read them their
> clearance?
>
> The pilot is going to need some time to digest the clearance. I certainly
> wouldn't just take the clearance without regard and depart.

The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and then
gave the strip to the data man for the release. Every clearance was as
filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you flight planned properly.

Steven P. McNicoll asked
> What was the departure airport?

KFFZ. Falcon Field, Mesa, Arizona.

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> The Oshkosh tower
> sup was even lamenting to me that they FAA took away the printer
> after the airshow each year.
>

I don't think that's been the case for quite some time now.

As I recall, there were limits on the number of printers the Flight Data
Processing computer could support. During the EAA convention OSH would have
a printer at the expense of DBQ tower. It was strange because OSH had a
higher annual traffic count than DBQ.

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
> said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and then
> gave the strip to the data man for the release.
>

Hmmm..., previously you said the clearance wouldn't be issued until the
aircraft was ready to go.


>
> Every clearance was as filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you
> flight planned properly.
>

Nobody ever filed an unacceptable route? That seems VERY unlikely.

On Nov 28, 5:08 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > That's one way to look at it. However fortunately in this case the
> > weather was clear and there were probably minimal safety issues. If
> > pilots give ATC some slack when needed, hopefully they'll be nice when
> > the pilots mess up. He did eventually get the clearance straightened
> > out. Nobody's perfect, and as long as we all realize and learn from
> > mistakes, I don't see why there's a need to be anal about it.
>
> > It's a two-way street.
>
> Why does ATC need some slack in this case? Ground control knew he was IFR,
> that controller issued an IFR clearance and taxi instructions to the OP.
> Presumably the ground controller passes a flight strip to the local
> controller on all departures that shows the aircraft to be IFR or VFR. This
> is about as basic as it gets in ATC, there's no excuse for this error and
> certainly no excuse for compounding it by asking the OP to squawk VFR after
> departure.

Agreed, ATC completely screwed up. My point was only this - suppose
you bust an altitude because you were distracted, etc. If it didn't
cause a loss of seperation, would you rather the controller said,
"please check your altitude" or "please call this number when you land
to discuss FAA administrative action."

In this scenario, the tables were turned. Let's treat ATC how we
would like to be treated.

Nobody is perfect all of the time. It's just a question of how to
handle things when someone does occasionally screw up.

--Dan

> The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
> said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and then
> gave the strip to the data man for the release. Every clearance was as
> filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you flight planned properly.

If the clearance was not as filed, the pilot may need to revise a
number of avionics settings, e.g. change waypoints if /G. Flying
around Chicago, I seldom get "as filed" even when I try filing the
route they gave me last time.

paul kgyy wrote:

>>The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
>>said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and then
>>gave the strip to the data man for the release. Every clearance was as
>>filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you flight planned properly.
>
>
> If the clearance was not as filed, the pilot may need to revise a
> number of avionics settings, e.g. change waypoints if /G. Flying
> around Chicago, I seldom get "as filed" even when I try filing the
> route they gave me last time.

Sure, but I was in North Dakota. No issues like in a big city. And at
the time nobody flew /G. A few aircraft were /R but all of UND's fleet
was /A.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>
>
> I believe the AIM uses "ready for departure".
>
>

Thanks Steve, I feel vindicated. I use "xxx tower, N3351W ready for
departure runway xx". I assume if I've gotten a clearance from ground
or clearance delivery that tower has gotten a strip on me. I can't
recall ever getting an IFR lost by the tower. I've had strips dropped
on occasion crossing sector boundaries, but those are always quickly
resolved. I certainly would yell if tower told me to squawk or remain
VFR after departing on an IFR clearance, as it puts the onus on me to
get back into the system if I want to be in the system.

Newps wrote:

> The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
> said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and then
> gave the strip to the data man for the release. Every clearance was as
> filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you flight planned properly.

You've obviously never flown in the North East then. Unless you've
flown the exact route several times, know the traffic patterns currently
in use around NYC, and have a spate of good luck, you will usually get a
full route clearance. The preferred routes in the ugly green book are
not always the ones used either. Except for the relatively rare cleared
as filed, you'll have something to digest and a new flight plan to put
into the GPS before you are ready to depart. I always call for my
clearance before engine start, and almost always get the clearance then
as well. On routes that I fly frequently, I often do get the route I
filed, but even then they often give it as either a full or partial
route clearance.

"Dan" > wrote in message
...
>
> Agreed, ATC completely screwed up. My point was only this - suppose
> you bust an altitude because you were distracted, etc. If it didn't
> cause a loss of seperation, would you rather the controller said,
> "please check your altitude" or "please call this number when you land
> to discuss FAA administrative action."
>

I'd rather the former, and that tends to be the case where no loss of
separation has ocurred.


>
> In this scenario, the tables were turned. Let's treat ATC how we
> would like to be treated.
>
> Nobody is perfect all of the time. It's just a question of how to
> handle things when someone does occasionally screw up.
>

I don't have an issue with the initial error, the controller not knowing the
guy was IFR. I have an issue with the controller trying to cover up that
error.

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
. net...
> Matt W. Barrow wrote:
>> "Andrey Serbinenko" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> if I'm VFR I'd say:
>>> "such-and-such ready for take-off, departing north-west (or whatever),
>>> and if I'm IFR I'd say: "such-and-such ready for take-off, IFR to XXX".
>>>
>>
>> That's what I use; no confusion about it.
>
> Same here.
>
> On the VFR side, it also helps the controller to know which way you're
> planning to go without waiting to be asked.

When VFR, I request something like "...Columbia six Mike Kelo, three one
(runway), ready for takeoff, request southeast departure...", or I just go
with the flow.
--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

On Nov 27, 3:24 pm, "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
>
> Looks like the cover up didn't work too well, because when I told Departure,
> "I thought I was IFR," he replied, "Well, that's what we thought too, but
> evidently Tower messed up."
>

With the IWA ASR less than ten miles from FFZ Phoenix TRACON would
have had radar contact very soon after departure.

On Nov 27, 3:56 pm, wrote:
>
> Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
> instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
> suspicious.
>

"... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." was part of the
clearance.

On Nov 28, 4:18 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:

> And if the tower respnds by telling you you're released? What do you do?

That's never happened.

> Any needed release should have been obtained during the taxi so that when
> you are ready for takeoff you can be so cleared.

ATC seems to be able to secure the release during taxi at most 40% of
the time. Usually when you tell tower you are ready to go they tell
you that they are still waiting for your release from departure.

>> I believe the AIM uses "ready for departure".

Since that almost killed me once, I'm not going to do it again.

-Robert

On Nov 27, 1:56 pm, wrote:
> Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
> instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
> suspicious.

Have you ever not been given such instructions when VFR?? I've never
gotten a VFR takeoff clearance that didn't include some instruction on
what heading (or at least direction) to fly until leaving the class D.

-Robert

On Nov 27, 4:05 pm, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com>
wrote:
> Jon Woellhaf wrote:
> > Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
> > didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.
>
> Sounds like somebody dropped the soap. I usually make my first contact to
> clearance delivery by stating words to the effect: "Cessna 1234Alpha IFR to
> Miami with golf, requesting clearance." After that, it's all on them.

By then you are already in the system. In the OP's case he was
airborne, assuming he had IFR services provided, and then found out
the ball was dropped. Once you go to departure is probably too late.

I did have departure once tell me "radar services terminated, squawk
VFR". I told him "unable, IFR".

-Robert

Maybe I'm confused too, but I thought we always told Ground Control that we
were ready to taxi IFR or VFR, especially if we picked up our clearance from
some other controller. Is this no longer the norm?

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
....
>>
>> Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
>> didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>

In article >,
"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:

> I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
> clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
> taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
> departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.
>
> At about 1000 AGL, I began the left turn to 3000.
>
> About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
> asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
> confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
> departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm IFR,"
> I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor, squawk
> 1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR. I didn't
> get you a release."

Now I understand why at VNY, clearance delivery always tells you to
"advise the tower you are IFR" after they issue a clearance.

rg

Ray Andraka wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>
>> The aircraft called ground control when he was done with his runup and
>> said he was ready for the clearance. GC read him the clearance and
>> then gave the strip to the data man for the release. Every clearance
>> was as filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you flight
>> planned properly.
>
>
> You've obviously never flown in the North East then. Unless you've
> flown the exact route several times, know the traffic patterns currently
> in use around NYC, and have a spate of good luck, you will usually get a
> full route clearance. The preferred routes in the ugly green book are
> not always the ones used either. Except for the relatively rare cleared
> as filed, you'll have something to digest and a new flight plan to put
> into the GPS before you are ready to depart. I always call for my
> clearance before engine start, and almost always get the clearance then
> as well. On routes that I fly frequently, I often do get the route I
> filed, but even then they often give it as either a full or partial
> route clearance.


I said that already. This was North Dakota. There are no airspace
issues. At all.

Jim Carter wrote:

> Maybe I'm confused too, but I thought we always told Ground Control that we
> were ready to taxi IFR or VFR, especially if we picked up our clearance from
> some other controller. Is this no longer the norm?


You really have to see how a busy VFR tower works from the inside to see
how it's easy to lose an aircraft. At GFK every morning we'd have 25
aircraft on the taxiway, all ready to depart and more taxiing out. That
was the easy part, no arrivals. Now have the same number ready to go
but you have six airplanes doing touch and goes on your runway and six
more the other tower controller is working on his runway. Aircraft 3
miles away needing to be sequenced into one of the patterns. Aircraft
still on the ground you pay little attention to as that's only a small fire.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
> On Nov 28, 4:18 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> And if the tower respnds by telling you you're released? What do you do?
>>
>
> That's never happened.
>

It hasn't happened to you yet. What will you do when it does?


>>
>> Any needed release should have been obtained during the taxi so that when
>> you are ready for takeoff you can be so cleared.
>>
>
> ATC seems to be able to secure the release during taxi at most 40% of
> the time. Usually when you tell tower you are ready to go they tell
> you that they are still waiting for your release from departure.
>

That's rather inefficient.


>>
>> I believe the AIM uses "ready for departure".
>>
>
> Since that almost killed me once, I'm not going to do it again.
>

Please explain how reporting "ready for departure" almost killed you.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>
>> Every clearance was as filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you
>> flight planned properly.
>>
>
> Nobody ever filed an unacceptable route? That seems VERY unlikely.
>
>
They let departure give him a reroute as soon as they handed him off :-)

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Nov 27, 1:56 pm, wrote:
>> Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
>> instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
>> suspicious.
>
> Have you ever not been given such instructions when VFR?? I've never
> gotten a VFR takeoff clearance that didn't include some instruction on
> what heading (or at least direction) to fly until leaving the class D.
>

From class B's and certain class C's it was given to me prior to
taxi. The Dulles standard VFR departure is:

Cleared into the class B via fly runway heading maintain vfr at
or below 1500 departure frqeuency 126.1 squawk 0423

Very unusual at class D towers to be given any restriction after
takeoff.

Jim Carter wrote:
> Maybe I'm confused too, but I thought we always told Ground Control that we
> were ready to taxi IFR or VFR, especially if we picked up our clearance from
> some other controller. Is this no longer the norm?
>
Nope, not at Dulles. The guy who gave me my clearance has dropped the
strip down the rack by the appropriate ground controller. The call
is usually "Dulles Ground Navion 5327K TAXI". They already know where
I am and obviously where I need to go.

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
>>
>>> Every clearance was as filed. Always. There's nothing to digest if you
>>> flight planned properly.
>>>
>>
>> Nobody ever filed an unacceptable route? That seems VERY unlikely.
> They let departure give him a reroute as soon as they handed him off :-)
>

Sounds like ZMP.

I was always taught (and always use!) "IFR" in my comms with both
ground and tower/clearance delivery. "Cessna 1234 at ... ready to
taxi, IFR" AND in the runup area "Cessna 1234 at ... ready for IFR
departure". I do NOT wait for my release at the hold short line,
because if there is a delay (incoming traffic etc), I will be blocking
traffic departing VFR.

--Jeff

On Nov 27, 1:14 pm, "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
> I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
> clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
> taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
> departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.
>
> At about 1000 AGL, I began the left turn to 3000.
>
> About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
> asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
> confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
> departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm IFR,"
> I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor, squawk
> 1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR. I didn't
> get you a release."
>
> I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
> They soon got it and handed me off to departure.
>
> Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
> didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.
>
> Jon

"Newps" > wrote
> You really have to see how a busy VFR tower works from the inside to see
> how it's easy to lose an aircraft. At GFK every morning we'd have 25
> aircraft on the taxiway, all ready to depart and more taxiing out. That
> was the easy part, no arrivals. Now have the same number ready to go but
> you have six airplanes doing touch and goes on your runway and six more
> the other tower controller is working on his runway. Aircraft 3 miles
> away needing to be sequenced into one of the patterns. Aircraft still on
> the ground you pay little attention to as that's only a small fire.

I can't imagine how anyone can be a controller. I can barely keep track of
where one plane (me) is. Kudos to all of you!

Jon

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
> On Nov 27, 10:14 am, "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
>
>> I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
>> They soon got it and handed me off to departure.
>>
>> Guess I'll remember to remind Tower that I'm IFR from now on, although I
>> didn't think that was necessary. At least in this case, it was.
>
> This has happened to me several times. Now I *NEVER* tell the tower
> I'm ready for take off if I'm IFR, I say "Ready for Release". Since
> then I've never had a problem.
>
> BTW: Once this could have been really dangerous. I was flying out of
> Santa Barbara where they often use a different runway for IFR and VFR.
> I told the tower I was ready to take off on runway XXX. Tower
> responded with "Cleared for take off". I said "that airliner on final
> looks really close". Tower said "Oh, I thought you were VFR I didn't
> realize you were at runway XXX". So bottom line, never say "take off"
> when you're IFR.

The pilot should only use the words "take off" when reading back the take
off clearance. No confusion then. When ready, I call the tower with "ready
for departure".

Patrick wrote:
> Jon,
>
> The turn should have started at 400 agl, right?

When the weather is less than VFR, yes. If it is VFR your first
responsbility is to exactly what he did because of the conflicting VFR
traffic.

"S Green" > wrote in message
...
>
> The pilot should only use the words "take off" when reading back the take
> off clearance. No confusion then. When ready, I call the tower with "ready
> for departure".

Why would "ready for departure" be less confusing than "ready for takeoff"?

Part of the takeoff clearance?




On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:03:04 -0800 (PST), "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>On Nov 27, 3:56 pm, wrote:
>>
>> Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
>> instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
>> suspicious.
>>
>
>"... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." was part of the
>clearance.

I must say that I have never received a VFR clearance which said "turn
left heading xxx" or "fly runway heading" on takeoff. Where I fly,
these are not VFR departure instructions. Perhaps they are elsewhere.

However, this does not negate my original comment. If departing IFR,
in the ABSENCE of such an instruction, be suspicious.


On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:06:26 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote:

>On Nov 27, 1:56 pm, wrote:
>> Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
>> instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
>> suspicious.
>
>Have you ever not been given such instructions when VFR?? I've never
>gotten a VFR takeoff clearance that didn't include some instruction on
>what heading (or at least direction) to fly until leaving the class D.
>
>-Robert

True. The difference here is of course that you will be handed off to
departure whether VFR or IFR, and will be easily able to recover. You
will not be faced with being in limbo as described in the original
post.


On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:39:23 -0500, Ron Natalie >
wrote:

>Robert M. Gary wrote:
>> On Nov 27, 1:56 pm, wrote:
>>> Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
>>> instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
>>> suspicious.
>>
>> Have you ever not been given such instructions when VFR?? I've never
>> gotten a VFR takeoff clearance that didn't include some instruction on
>> what heading (or at least direction) to fly until leaving the class D.
>>
>
> From class B's and certain class C's it was given to me prior to
>taxi. The Dulles standard VFR departure is:
>
>Cleared into the class B via fly runway heading maintain vfr at
>or below 1500 departure frqeuency 126.1 squawk 0423
>
>Very unusual at class D towers to be given any restriction after
>takeoff.

> wrote in message
...
>
> Part of the takeoff clearance?
>

Part of the IFR clearance.

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:14:36 -0700, "Jon Woellhaf"
> wrote:

>About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
>asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
>confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
>departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm IFR,"
>I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor, squawk
>1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR. I didn't
>get you a release."
>
>I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
>They soon got it and handed me off to departure.

In most instances, I would refuse to allow ATC to cancel my IFR clearance,
which is what happened in this instance.

If I've filed IFR, it's either because of weather related issues, or
occasionally because of traffic/route/airspace/TFR issues. In none of
those instances would I want to be re-negotiating an IFR clearance just
after takeoff.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

wrote:
> I must say that I have never received a VFR clearance which said "turn
> left heading xxx" or "fly runway heading" on takeoff.

Very common in busy airspace, as well as at fields with noise abatement
programs.

Northeastern Charlie and Bravo fields will often continue to vector and
assign altitudes until I exit the airspace.

On Nov 27, 3:26 pm, Andrey Serbinenko >
wrote:
> my SOP to always tell'em this explicitly: if I'm VFR I'd say:
> "such-and-such ready for take-off, departing north-west (or whatever),
> and if I'm IFR I'd say: "such-and-such ready for take-off, IFR to XXX".
>
> Andrey

Andrey,
It is also our SOP to tell the tower whether we are VFR or IFR.
Our primary flight instructor, a newly minted but very safety
conscious and capable CFI, taught us to do so from the very first
flight lesson.

Hai Longworth

Actually, I have to tell that to the Ground, too, since on calm days they would
use different runways for IFR and VFR, or would be lining up IFR departures
holding for release at full length while clearing VFR traffic for intersection
departure on the same runway. So, if you don't tell them, you may get sent to a
sub-optimal runway. My CFI always made a point of reading back runway and
intersection assignments in response to takeoff clearance, to give the
controller a chance to verify that we're actually at the place he thinks we
are at.

Andrey


Longworth > wrote:
> On Nov 27, 3:26 pm, Andrey Serbinenko >
> wrote:
>> my SOP to always tell'em this explicitly: if I'm VFR I'd say:
>> "such-and-such ready for take-off, departing north-west (or whatever),
>> and if I'm IFR I'd say: "such-and-such ready for take-off, IFR to XXX".
>>
>> Andrey
>
> Andrey,
> It is also our SOP to tell the tower whether we are VFR or IFR.
> Our primary flight instructor, a newly minted but very safety
> conscious and capable CFI, taught us to do so from the very first
> flight lesson.
>
> Hai Longworth

> However, this does not negate my original comment. If departing IFR,
> in the ABSENCE of such an instruction, be suspicious.

In my case (very similar to the OP's case) I was given departing
instructions as part of my clearance by ground. Its very rare to
receive those instructions again from tower so you wouldn't find it
odd if it wasn't repeated. I guess the ground and tower controllers
don't always coordinate as well as they should.

-robert

I was speaking of the takeoff clearance, to wit:


"Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
suspicious."


On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:24:48 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
...
>>
>> Part of the takeoff clearance?
>>
>
>Part of the IFR clearance.
>

Yes I misspoke - Class B and C towers do issue such instructions to
VFR pilots. However, since departure is contacted in such cases, the
error can be quickly remedied. (although I don't recall ever
experienceing tower confusion such as described in B and C airspace)


On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:52:42 -0500, B A R R Y >
wrote:

wrote:
>> I must say that I have never received a VFR clearance which said "turn
>> left heading xxx" or "fly runway heading" on takeoff.
>
>Very common in busy airspace, as well as at fields with noise abatement
>programs.
>
>Northeastern Charlie and Bravo fields will often continue to vector and
>assign altitudes until I exit the airspace.

On Nov 29, 4:16 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in ...
>
> > On Nov 28, 4:18 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
> > wrote:
>
> >> And if the tower respnds by telling you you're released? What do you do?
>
> > That's never happened.
>
> It hasn't happened to you yet. What will you do when it does?

That would be somewhat odd for a controller to release you at a
tower'd field but not clear you for take off. The phrase we need to
hear is 'cleared for takeoff'.


> > ATC seems to be able to secure the release during taxi at most 40% of
> > the time. Usually when you tell tower you are ready to go they tell
> > you that they are still waiting for your release from departure.
>
> That's rather inefficient.

Well I'd love it if my release was ready when I got to the runup, but
sadly I've found it to be less than common.

> > Since that almost killed me once, I'm not going to do it again.
>
> Please explain how reporting "ready for departure" almost killed you.

I thought I already did. I told tower I was "ready for takeoff runway
XXX". Tower said "Cleared for take off", I said "what about that big
airliner on final, tower said, "oh I though you were at the VFR
runway, YYY, hold short XXX". This was at a class C airport.

-Robert

> wrote in message
...
>
> I was speaking of the takeoff clearance, to wit:
>
>
> "Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
> instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
> suspicious."
>

That wasn't the case here. The OP had an instruction like that from the
tower, it was issued by ground control as part of the IFR clearance. No
reason to be suspicious.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
>
> That would be somewhat odd for a controller to release you at a
> tower'd field but not clear you for take off. The phrase we need to
> hear is 'cleared for takeoff'.
>

If you want to hear "cleared for takeoff" you should say something that
clearly tells the tower you're ready for takeoff, "ready for takeoff" or
"ready for departure" do that, "ready for release" doesn't do that.


>
> I thought I already did. I told tower I was "ready for takeoff runway
> XXX". Tower said "Cleared for take off", I said "what about that big
> airliner on final, tower said, "oh I though you were at the VFR
> runway, YYY, hold short XXX". This was at a class C airport.
>

Reporting "ready for departure" instead of "ready for takeoff" had nothing
to do with the controller's mistake about your location.

When I am IFR, and the tower does not issue some heading instruction
on takeoff, I get suspicious, and I double check. More often than
not (not always), I have found the situation to be as described - the
tower didn't get the word. So the risk/reward has been favorable.

Your experience may be different.





On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 04:30:37 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
...
>>
>> I was speaking of the takeoff clearance, to wit:
>>
>>
>> "Whenever you are cleared for takeoff and do not get some kind of
>> instruction from tower (fly runway heading, turn left xxx., etc), be
>> suspicious."
>>
>
>That wasn't the case here. The OP had an instruction like that from the
>tower, it was issued by ground control as part of the IFR clearance. No
>reason to be suspicious.
>

On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:04:35 GMT, wrote:

>When I am IFR, and the tower does not issue some heading instruction
>on takeoff, I get suspicious, and I double check. More often than
>not (not always), I have found the situation to be as described - the
>tower didn't get the word. So the risk/reward has been favorable.
>
>Your experience may be different.
>

I would opine that there is something wrong with the procedures at that
facility if the tower controller is "not getting the word" and that it
would be best to try to change something at the facility so that they are
operating in accordance with published procedures.

I'm not being critical of your method of "prompting" the tower -- it's for
your own safety at that point. But perhaps you could consider, when on the
ground, contacting the tower supervisor. Certainly ASRS forms could be
filed -- safety can be compromised when proper procedures are not followed.
And pilots from other parts of the country may not be aware that at your
facility the tower controllers are prone to this kind of lapse and require
special handling.

I operate in the NE, frequently from towered facilities, and I can't recall
a situation where I've received an IFR clearance (from ground control or
clearance delivery) and then have the tower be unaware of that fact.

KASH is a case in point. It is a busy facility; privately staffed; with a
mix of non-commercial operations. About the only time I get a direction to
fly instruction from Tower is if it is different from the one I received
from Ground.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:14:36 -0700, "Jon Woellhaf"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>About a minute later, when I hadn't yet been told to contact departure, I
>>asked Tower if they wanted me to contact departure. That's when the
>>confusion began. The controller said, "I didn't know you wanted to go to
>>departure, but, yeah, you can contact departure. Good day." "Well, I'm IFR,"
>>I replied. After a brief pause, Tower said, "Roger. Do me a favor, squawk
>>1200. I can't give you departure. You didn't tell me you were IFR. I didn't
>>get you a release."
>>
>>I said I'd proceed on course VFR and asked if they'd get me a clearance.
>>They soon got it and handed me off to departure.
>
>
> In most instances, I would refuse to allow ATC to cancel my IFR clearance,
> which is what happened in this instance.

If you were IMC and they started BSing you, just declare an emergency
and advise you are continuing on your clearance unless they have an
amended clearance.

wrote:
> When I am IFR, and the tower does not issue some heading instruction
> on takeoff,

We don't EVER get them here. The tower does "cleared for takeoff" and
a few seconds later "contact departure". No further instructions required.

On 2007-11-27 10:14:36 -0800, "Jon Woellhaf" > said:

> I recently filed IFR and received a clearance from Ground. As part of the
> clearance, I was told, "... after departure turn left heading 300 ..." I
> taxied to the active, did my run-up, called Tower and said I was ready for
> departure. I was soon cleared for takeoff.

The tower screwed up, no doubt, but I try to avoid things like that by
saying, instead of "Ready for departure," I say "Ready for IFR release."


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

> wrote in message
...
>
> When I am IFR, and the tower does not issue some heading instruction
> on takeoff, I get suspicious, and I double check. More often than
> not (not always), I have found the situation to be as described - the
> tower didn't get the word. So the risk/reward has been favorable.
>
> Your experience may be different.
>

There's no need or reason for local control to reissue what has already been
issued by ground control or clearance delivery.

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
news:2007120110162475249-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
>
> The tower screwed up, no doubt, but I try to avoid things like that by
> saying, instead of "Ready for departure," I say "Ready for IFR release."
>

And the tower responds, "I have your IFR release, advise when ready for
departure."

> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> news:2007120110162475249-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
>
>>The tower screwed up, no doubt, but I try to avoid things like that by
>>saying, instead of "Ready for departure," I say "Ready for IFR release."

Tower controllers hear all sorts of things on the air and only an idiot
would not understand ready for departure or ready for release.

On Dec 1, 2:38 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in ...
>
>
>
> > That would be somewhat odd for a controller to release you at a
> > tower'd field but not clear you for take off. The phrase we need to
> > hear is 'cleared for takeoff'.
>
> If you want to hear "cleared for takeoff" you should say something that
> clearly tells the tower you're ready for takeoff, "ready for takeoff" or
> "ready for departure" do that, "ready for release" doesn't do that.
>
>
>
> > I thought I already did. I told tower I was "ready for takeoff runway
> > XXX". Tower said "Cleared for take off", I said "what about that big
> > airliner on final, tower said, "oh I though you were at the VFR
> > runway, YYY, hold short XXX". This was at a class C airport.
>
> Reporting "ready for departure" instead of "ready for takeoff" had nothing
> to do with the controller's mistake about your location.

Unless the tower is used to getting departure releases for VFR
aircraft I would hope it would give him enough pause to not make the
mistake. In any case, since I've used this phrase I've not had a
problem. I did have a controller once say "oh, your IFR".

-Robert

writes:

> I must say that I have never received a VFR clearance which said "turn
> left heading xxx" or "fly runway heading" on takeoff. Where I fly,
> these are not VFR departure instructions. Perhaps they are elsewhere.

At DCA, ah the good old days.

> I must say that I have never received a VFR clearance which said "turn
> left heading xxx" or "fly runway heading" on takeoff. Where I fly,
> these are not VFR departure instructions. Perhaps they are elsewhere.

Here at ACY (Class C), for a VFR departure we almost always get "fly runway
heading, maintain at or below 1500". Occasionally when issuing the takeoff
clearance Tower will also clear us to turn on course .